This week we're joined by Casey Callahan, Lead Designer – Product Creative at Burton. Casey discusses bringing her own personality to a large brand, adding new perspectives to the snowboard industry, not taking yourself too seriously, and designing from a place of generosity. So much is packed into this episode - enjoy!
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Episode Transcript
Casey: At the end of the day when I'm on my snowboard and I'm like riding that east coast ice, I just… it's just the most humbling moment because it is just like the most freeing, creative feeling. Like, I feel the most confident and creative on my board… outside of when I'm actually creating anything.
[intro music] This is Outside By Design. Your all-access pass to the world of creativity in the outdoor industry.
Lisa: Welcome to the podcast, all you outdoor creatives. I realized we keep forgetting to introduce ourselves in this season of the podcast. So my name's Lisa Slagle and I own a creative agency called WHEELIE. It's wheeliecreative.com. And we specialize in helping brands articulate and amplify what they stand for and how to use capitalism for good. We specialize in human-centered design, video-centered campaigns, and we also do a lot of trail system branding and mapping. So it is outrageously fun. And then we also do this podcast because we get to talk to very intelligent, creative people throughout the entire outdoor industry. And it's one of my favorite things to do.
So today is an especially fun episode for me because I got to speak to Casey Callahan and she works at Burton as the design lead of product and creative. And so she is a genius. I absolutely enjoy speaking about snowboarding and creativity. And so obviously this was a conversation that I couldn't get enough of for those reasons on a personal level, but also Casey is so level-headed and she has such good perspective. The way that she speaks about her relationship to creativity, as well as her relationship to using her own voice within a brand is magical.
I think that anyone who leads a creative team can aspire to have someone with the vision and perspective of Casey. Like, I'm not joking. This woman is pure generosity. And her approach is really, really admirable. Like, wow.
So I will not talk anymore. I will let you hear it for yourself because this episode is fire. Enjoy.
[music]
Lisa: Casey. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I am excited to talk to you.
Casey: Yeah. Excited to talk to you too.
Lisa: So the first question we ask every single person is to describe where you are and what you're looking at.
Casey: Okay. So I'm in a very small room inside Burton at the moment that has a bunch of product samples and random clothes and clothing racks. [laughs] It's kind of the only place I could find peace where I know nobody will disturb me at the moment. So that's kind of where I'm hidden at the moment.
Lisa: Yeah. I was wondering what all those things are behind you. Are those clothing racks?
Casey: Yeah. They're like, so you can hang them and like, measure and do fit stuff. So. Luckily it's pretty empty today, so I don't have a lot of people coming through, but.
Lisa: That’s fun. So you're the design lead and product creative at Burton. So what does, what does that mean? What do you do?
Casey: That’s a great question. I… so I'm kind of wearing a few hats at the moment, so… about two months ago, I was actually a design lead within the marketing department here at Burton. And I recently made the switch over to product. So design lead in product is a new role, but it's definitely been fast-paced ever since I started. So basically I design and come up with creative concepts throughout the hard goods, which is specific more to, to board graphics. So that's been the world I've been inside of for two months. But previous to that, it was a lot of like the campaigns, the brand campaigns and a lot of the marketing tactics and stuff like that.
Lisa: Oh, I'm excited to talk to you. I have like 9 million questions running through my head. So how did, how did you get this job? Because this is, I think, a dream job.
Casey: Yeah, I think I'm still trying to figure that out myself. [laughs] I think it's sort of beyond anything I ever, ever thought would be possible within my mindset, just because I grew up in a fairly small town in Oklahoma. And recreation wasn't really… the outdoors recreation wasn't really a big deal there. Not that people didn't know they existed, but it wasn't a whole lifestyle. And if you would have told me then that I'd be doing this now, I would be… I'd probably ask you how, if I even know how to snowboard, if I even know what that is.
So I think I'm still trying to figure out how I got here. I think… when I left school in Oklahoma, I moved to Seattle and that opened up a lot of the outdoor industry world to me. I never worked in the outdoor industry there, but I did, you know, get to know some of the people there and getting to know just how important the outdoor industry is to the world and kind of the power it holds.
So I think that kind of got me on the right step to start looking. I think Seattle just got too big for me in a lot of ways. And I started looking a bit more outward, and that's when I saw a designer role posted at Burton and I was like, “oh, whatever, I'll just apply. We'll see what happens,” without any thought process, really, behind it. And then a few months later, I get a call and I ended up flying out for an interview. And that was the first time I'd ever even been to Vermont. So I'm still shocked that I'm here, I think.
So, to answer that question, I have no idea. But I think… I started out doing US Open graphics and a design for their snowboard competition. And then obviously COVID hit. So that turned into more of a, you know, a brand marketing role that really took shape and working on Mine77, which is this sub-collection that Burton runs that's very product focused. So that doorway kind of led me to get to know some of the product people and sort of learn that there was an opening within product design. And that was a very long-winded answer, but basically that's how I got there.
Lisa: So your background is in graphic design.
Casey: Yeah. I went to school for visual communication, which is just a fancy term for graphic design. And I think it was there I kind of figured out pretty quickly that my design style wasn't quite like people around me, I felt more inclined to be more illustrative and, you know, more concept driven rather than these like fine, polished, high-end designs, if that makes any sense. I think that's where I kind of quickly figured out that process, and… I don't know, that side of design was much more interesting to me.
And then I tried to play the role of being in the advertising, very corporate world when I lived in Seattle and I, you know, soon figured out I couldn't keep holding in my design style, I had to keep finding outlets where I could do some more illustration and things like that. So I definitely… I definitely would say my focus within Burton is more of the artistic, you know, illustrative side of things.
Lisa: Amazing. So have you designed board graphics?
Casey: I have, yes. So since I'm newer to this side of the world, I… I have designed them and they're currently working through to be put into the market in two years. Because Burton runs two years ahead. So they won't be in the world for another two years, but I have been designing snowboard graphics. Yes.
Lisa: Oh, that's so exciting. The day you get to like stomp on them and ride your own art around is going to be so exciting.
Casey: I know! I'm so excited. It's… it's funny too, though. I think any artist or designer could agree that once you make something and then you look at it consistently and constantly, I think by that time I'm going to be like, “okay, yeah, I've looked at this too many times,” but hopefully it'll still be just as exciting.
Lisa: Oh, yeah. Okay. So you, you get to kind of like express your weird funky art, artistic style at Burton. Where else does that get to show up in your job?
Casey: Mmm.
Lisa: And I love, I love talking to creatives who work in house because it's like, you're you. You're Casey. But you're also representing Burton. And then maybe you're even representing something more specific, like a snowboard family, or, you know, like how do you bring your quirky style into a brand?
Casey: Ooh, that's such a good question. I think, you know, there's a really good balance with that because I think just like me, Burton is a breathing thing. So I have to respect that at times it needs me to focus more on what the whole brand itself is representing. Whereas like, I can't always put my own take on everything. And I'm - let me know if this doesn't really answer your question - but I think something I really try to do with Burton specifically is like, allow it to really change my perspective on design. And so it's, it's already opened me up very quickly to trying things I would've never tried in the past. So whether that's like a concept, or like a piece of art I would have never thought I'd be capable of creating, or a texture on a board, or like, a material finish I wouldn't think possible, it's pushed me in a lot of ways. So I like to think that I am hopefully doing the same for it. And I know like, it is a company, but as like a brand, Burton has created so many historical, monumental things that I think it's in a very interesting stage in its life right now. The snowboard industry has changed so much since the early days, and I wasn't even privy to those times, you know?
So I think something I like to think is that I'm also contributing to Burton in a way where I bring maybe more of an outside bubble perspective, not ever snowboarding before I worked at Burton was a big thing. And, you know, being a part of a different culture in Seattle, a different culture in Oklahoma, I think has given me a bit of perspective to be able to, to contribute, you know, new ways of thinking. So in terms of artistically, like visually, I think, you know, it's a compatible relationship and it's changing. But I think in terms of like the overall process and concept, I think I get to be able to bring more of like an understanding of what it looks like to pop your head outside of the Burton bubble every once in a while. I hope I can bring that a little bit.
Lisa: Yeah. What do you think you bring back when you go pop your head outside of the Burton bubble? Like, what… almost like a golden retriever, what are you bringing back?
Casey: Well, something recently that has, like, kind of popped into my head is the fact that some people are buying these snowboards and it might be their only board for five, ten years. I think when you live in Burlington or you live in the outdoor industry, if you live in a town that's very centered around being outdoors, a lot of gear is being bought continuously. And there's a lot of knowledge within the brand of knowing exactly which boards were what year, which graphics were when, which graphics have changed throughout the years, which is a very needed and necessary part of this brand and something I admire.
But there's also the other side of a consumer that has maybe never tried snowboarding once in their life. And this is an overwhelming amount of information for them and they need a board that will just be their board for the next five years. So I try to bring us… I guess, more down to earth and sort of humanize that side of us because I think there is so much more out there. Like there's so many consumers out there that haven't even thought that snowboarding was possible for them. So what if we made it more possible? I guess that's where I kind of hope I can duck my head out and be like, “what does somebody that's never tried snowboarding see when they see Burton?”
Lisa: What do you hope they see? Or what do you want- I guess, what's like something special that you bring to help change that vision?
Casey: You know, and I'm gonna like out myself a bit here, I think that's something I want to work towards. I can't say like… I think that's something too with big companies and people within those big companies, I think there's a lot of hope that that's where people already are at, , that you've accomplished all the goals. And you've tried everything possible to get to where you want to be. If that makes any sense. I think I am on the road to hope that we can bring more people in. And in terms of that, I think it's just more information on- or, I guess more accessibility to each board.
And I like to think that each of these boards are just like living, breathing personalities, and there's so much character to each board. If we could help explain that further or bring people more awareness to what board fits their body shape or what board is gender inclusive or what board is best for what type of rider you are, beginner, expert, anything like that. I think that there is definitely a lot of space for Burton to push that. Family Tree is our non-gendered board line. And so it allows for a lot of flexibility and who you are as a person, the board doesn't care, what gender you are, the board doesn't care, what size you are. It just cares that you're riding it. And so I think that is a huge, massive step we can keep taking towards bringing all types of people onto the boards. So.
[ad break]
Lisa: I think you're in a really special place because snowboarding, by nature, is this really cool intersection of culture. And I hear you kind of expanding what snowboard culture can include in your vision. And I think that that's beautiful.
Casey: I honestly have never been a part of something that's such like a living breathing thing where there's so much passion and so much history and like craft that takes place within these walls. It's… it is really magical to see. And I think it's easy to get, to take it for granted and to just be… like, basically, I think the people here are so talented and there's so much that can go into each board that to be able to bring people's more awareness to understanding what those boards are capable of is definitely something we have the power to do.
And I think the industry in itself has tapped into so many different sectors, but I think it's just beginning. There's an endless stream of ideas and concepts that can come through with Burton. Snowboarding has gotten to this like peak of culture, lately. And I think a lot of people can either see that as a very scary thing, or they can see it as an opportunity to create new worlds within that.
And it's not just to say that let's lose our culture, let's lose what we've built, but let's bring people in that probably never even thought snowboarding was in their mind. Like, isn't even a light in the tunnel right now. You know what I mean?
Lisa: Yeah, I think… so for me personally, I love snowboarding. I have based all my life decisions around snowboarding. I've fallen in love on chairlifts and I've, you know, all my business decisions have been based on if I can run my business from the mountains and, like, I’ve based my whole entire life, every single decision around snowboarding. And I still never really felt, like, cool enough. Like I almost have… even though I shred every day and I have a really good time doing that, I still have never really felt like that culture is for me. But I do remember the moment snowboarding changed my life, which was, I was 14 and I was in a movie theater watching the movie Out Cold.
Casey: Best. Movie. Ever.
Lisa: Right? And that's the first time that Hollywood had given me a character that I could identify with, it was the snowboarder Jenny and I was like, oh, she's so cool. She's on Hangman's peak. And they've got that yellow Forum board, you know, and I was like, I'm gonna be her. And so I did. I was like 14 and I was like, “That’s it. Forget every other plan, I'm going to go be a snowboarder.” You know, and like, what if I hadn't had that hero? What if I hadn't been able to see myself in this cool snowboard chick in Hollywood? And like, I just think representation matters so much and just showing a kid what's out there.
Casey: Oh, absolutely. I think too, like… so I didn't step on a snowboard until I got the job at Burton and that was in itself extremely intimidating. And Burton has always, you know, been very transparent about that you don't need to be a snowboarder to work here, but, you know, I won't lie. It definitely helps to understand more of how this became a living breathing thing. And so, you know, the intimidation factor is, you know, frankly still there sometimes. I have definitely grown beyond what I thought was possible in, like, my snowboarding to this point. But, you know, the imposter syndrome is there. And I think, you know, you look around this company and also the culture in general and you see it changing so rapidly, for good, in my opinion. And like Jess Kimura just recently came out with a film called Learning To Drown, which, for everybody listening, like pause this, come back to it, go watch Learning To Drown really quickly. And it just shows the like stamina- like, it's one of the most mind-bending things, to snowboard. Because it'll test your physical and mental thought process. And I'm not even jumping off these huge, I can't even imagine what kind of physical and mental strength that takes. But it really tests you as a person. And that is a very beautiful thing because it also, with that test comes a lot of freedom and confidence, I think I would have never had previously.
And then you look at Jess Kumura and she's, she's making this whole, I don't know, industry better by bringing in a hole that has not been filled, which is basically bringing in a bunch of women and representing them and having their own film so that they have a space to really explore themselves and get better without judgment.
And I think she put it really perfectly in that movie and said, you know, women are always, you know, kind of the joke. And, you know, you can joke around in this industry and be, you know, be a part of the guys group and things like that. But at what expense do the women really get like put into the butt of the joke at all times?
So I think to have a space… you just have to look around this industry and see where the holes are. There’s millions of holes that have not been filled. And like, there's so much opportunity to like, level the playing field. And so, I dunno, it's exciting. It can be really intimidating. You think about all the things you want to do to make this place better, or how you can be better, and it's intimidating, and there's a lot of history and culture behind snowboarding that it, you know, it can really be hard to push that boundary or push… really be the one that wants to push it in front of everybody. So it's a tough thing, you know?
Lisa: Yeah. It is.
[ad break]
Lisa: We had you fill out a form before the podcast, but it's - your values come through so much to me, but - your three values, when we asked what are your top three values, you answered: be open-minded and flexible, create space and time for living, and don't take yourself too seriously. And I just, I hear that your creative process and your approach to snowboarding and... yeah, I think you're a person who really lives her values.
Casey: For sure. And I think, you know, I wrote those especially because I see… not only design, but snowboarding, in senses where it's been taken or it's taken itself too seriously. You know, and that really drains a lot of life out of so many beautiful things, and it also really cuts off communication to new ideas and new people. When you really have a rigid line of how things should go, it really, you know, intimidates people to not want to take a step towards something different.
I think for a long time at Burton - to nobody's fault - I think my imposter syndrome had been so bad because I wasn't really within this world. And I, you know, grew up in the middle of the country where, you know, the outdoors, weren't a priority. I think in my mind, I just, I didn't have the right to be saying how things should go. And, you know, I still have days like that. I'm not, I definitely will not sit here and tell you I've overcome all of that. But I think I've realized the benefit of what it is to be new to the sport, what it is to be a woman in this sport, what it is to be a designer in this sport, too.
And I think something too, I will point out specifically with board graphics and like my values that I shared with you… I think because there's so much history and there's so many opinions and people in the room it's… it's difficult to really, like, know yourself what's right or wrong when it comes to design for the snowboard world. You feel like you're trying to please so many different people. There's so many people that ride snowboards and all of them want something out of this board. So I think that for a while now has been intimidating for me. And like, you know, I like will lose sleep over like, “oh, I hope that person loves this board or this person, you know, is excited about this graphic.” And I think at the end of the day, you really have to remind yourself that it's just design. It's just snowboarding. It's not going to solve every world problem, but it definitely can bring joy. So just remind yourself, like, those are what is important, that the sport is fun and the sport doesn't have rules - even though many people will tell you it does. But there is, there's no rules. And so why, I don't know, why subject yourself to all these hard lines when there's so much that can come out of these ideas. If that makes any sense.
I think it's been really beautiful to work here because I have like shifted my mindset about a thousand times because it's never what I thought it would be. And there's so many good people here that have such great ideas that could be elevated for sure. And so, yeah, it's just a beautiful thing to see.
Lisa: It really seems like you design from a place of generosity. You know, you're not like, “I'm designing this because it's cool. And I think it looks good.” You're like, you're laying awake at night being like, “I hope this person likes this board.” Like what a, what a generous space to create from.
Casey: Totally. And I mean that also, you know, that can also be a blessing and a curse for me, because I think there's times when, you know, you’ve got to just shut it off, like, I'm off the clock and I can't design for you anymore!
What I love about design personally is that you can create something out of complete nothingness and that you can also create a living breathing thing. I've said this before, too, that I've always been really jealous of music because it has the opportunity to impact someone so viscerally and like, so outwardly that I've been jealous that sometimes design doesn't quite always have that impact. It sometimes it's a slow burn. But with snowboards, like, you know… I'm sure you can recall, especially after like years of riding, like, oh, this graphic, like, that is when I felt good on my board. That is when I like had that memory or that was at that place. And it has the power to create this insane, like, following and love and like memory. That like, can feel very pressure on me, but also can be like, how cool is it that I get to do that? I don't know. It's like it's a two way street, you know?
Lisa: Oh, the Burton Feelgood.
Casey: Yeah? Which one do you have?
Lisa: True to its name. I just remember I… that was the board for me, where I really learned to how to snowboard well. And then I snapped two of them and I stopped riding them, but no one needs to know that.
[both laugh]
Casey: I, you know what's funny about that is, I started off on the Yeasayer for Burton, which is, you know, a pretty all around board, is very good for beginners. And I got it and I, you know, I thought I was learning and it was great. And as I kept getting better, I was like, oh, I'm outgrowing this board. Like, this is… I am like becoming bigger than this board. I need a new one. And I got the Feelgood. And I feel like that is when I realized like, oh, this is… this is how you ride a snowboard. Like this is… it's crazy how they have different personalities.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it kind of, this is so dorky to say, but there's this line in a Harry Potter book and I've been trying to find it, but it basically is talking about how muggles are like so ridiculous for just like going uphill and then sliding down on planks, like, referring to skiing.
And I just remember thinking that was like the most basic explanation of the thing I've based my life around, which is just something totally pointless, just sliding downhill. And it's fun, and it's meant to be fun. And I think that we get to define what fun is.
Casey: Totally. And I love that you even said that. ‘Cause I think, you know, the coolest part about like… design and snowboarding actually have a lot of parallels, which is the fact that they are capable of like, a lot of power. And they're also capable of just being this like weird thing that people take part in. And that is, like, not serious and super fun. You know, I think that the fact that they can both be two things at once is my favorite part about it. I think, you know, at the end of the day, when I'm on my snowboard and I'm like riding that east coast ice, it's just the most humbling moment because it is just like the most freeing creative feeling. Like I feel the most confident and creative on my board and outside of when I'm actually creating anything.
So I think that's another way to like, kind of humanize and humble yourself within any industry in any world with design is just like, just to remind yourself, like what it means to actually do the thing that you're doing. Does that make any sense? Like, whether it's hiking or, you know, whether it's snowboarding or whether you're, you know, working for a, like a running company or whatever, you know, just like, remember what that activity, what that feeling is for the customer and for yourself is like, it's just all good. It's all good, fun things. So like take that like seriousness out of it at times. ‘Cause you really got to like ground yourself again.
Lisa: Oh, I love that. I love, too, your perspective on humanizing the creative process. That's incredibly beautiful. Yeah. What else do you mean by that?
Casey: Yeah. I mean, I think like for so many years, I think process- and I think this is also maybe just a trend that's changed a lot in the last few years, is that process was kind of hidden and behind the scenes of how things are created and the errors and the complete fuck-ups, sorry if I'm not allowed to say that word, but how they kind of were in the closet behind you so that like no one would see them or hear them or understand that there's like so much more that goes into becoming a great snowboarder, becoming a great artist or designer. There's so much failure. And that isn't the traditional sense of the word where fail is like a bad thing. I think failure is… has the power to be one of the most like beautiful, humbling creations of art in general. So, I think that is where I kind of bring in that like humanity of snowboarding and design. It's just like when you see those snowboard films where people are continuously messing up and then they get that- they finally get that trick or they finally hit that rail or whatever it is that they're doing. Then you're, you're obviously more satisfied because you're like, “oh, I saw how long it took them to get it.” But if you're just seeing a highlight reel of like these huge, crazy cliff jumps and like everything perfect. And like they're landing every single trick, then you're like, “cool. Yeah. Okay.” But you have nothing to measure it by. And that's the same, that's sort of where I kind of want to bring in… people that have never snowboarded, they see that and they're gonna be like, “well, I'm never going to do that. Like, I can't even imagine myself on that mountain,” but then you see, you know, these like wonderful group of women, like all supporting each other and telling each other to challenge themselves and try new things. Like, you're like, “okay, well maybe I could be a part of that.” So yeah, I think the humanization thing goes for both. You got to show some of the mess ups and like, be honest with those failures, because people, I think, will respect you more when you, you know, show your cards a bit, have that vulnerability.
Lisa: Oh, I love that. That's amazing. How, how are you growing at Burton? Are you going to be managing anyone? Are you managing anyone?
Casey: Yeah, so, you know, I think the first part of that question, how am I growing at Burton, has been just like a nonstop, uphill, like crazy experience since I got here. I started about now almost three years ago and it's, it's changed every single month since I've been here, in all the best ways. So I'm constantly growing. And that is a beautiful thing because I feel like in any other situation or job I've been in, I haven't had that opportunity. So, yeah, in the next few months we're opening up a role and it's our design apprenticeship role, which basically means we'll have a rotating seasonal person coming in and helping with more of the artistic graphic side of things within hard goods, but also a little bit in soft goods. And that person will be under me. So that'll be definitely more of like a mentorship opportunity for both of us, honestly, because I definitely have a lot to learn from whoever comes in.
But yeah, I think we're, we're going to be able to have a really great opportunity with that because it'll be much more of like a… I guess a way for Burton to peek outside of its… outside of the world that is existing beyond just Burton and bringing someone in with fresh perspective. , and it's going to be kind of like a continuous thing. And the hope is to eventually grow it into this, like, sort of a… we want it to become like a really great experience that can be like a rotating person that really brings a new, fresh perspective for us every time. So, yeah, it'll be really cool once it's posted. It should be posted within the next few months.
Lisa: Cool. Cool. Well, is there anything I didn't ask you that you want to share with our audience?
Casey: Oh man. I don't think so. I think, you know, just, yeah. Remind yourself that like all of this is just like to make people feel good and happy and confident. And that like, there's no finish line that we're all trying to reach and there's no, like, all knowing snowboard god at the top of the hill, like telling you what's right or what's wrong. So just, you know, remember that you can make up all your own rules within this kind of stuff, which has been the best experience for me to remember.
Lisa: Well, you, Casey are just a really cool human and Burton knew what they were doing when they hired you. Let me tell you.
Casey: Oh, God, that is so nice of you to hear- or, for me to hear. ‘Cause sometimes I'm like, what am I doing?
Lisa: Oh, no, you got it going on. I love your creative approach and your relationship to work and your relationship to your own voice within the company. I, yeah, I just think you are kind of a genius, quite frankly.
Casey: Wow. Thank you. That is not at all how it feels, but I appreciate it. [laughs]
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for your wisdom. This has been amazing.
Casey: Yeah, this has been so great. I'm so glad you're also like having this podcast for like, you know, people that wouldn't typically be able to speak on this kind of stuff too. So that's really cool. Keep doing this for sure.
Lisa: Awesome. Well, where can people follow you online and where can people get ahold of you?
Casey: Yeah, let's see. I guess my Instagram is just @caseyskylar, so feel free to follow me or find me there. But other than that, you know, if you don't snowboard, my request is try it and, you know, fall 5,000 times, but maybe one time you'll have like one good line and you'll be like, “okay, that was pretty fun.”
Lisa: Awesome. Cool. Well thank you so much.
[music]
Iris: Thank you so much for tuning in to Outside by Design. This show is produced by WHEELIE.
Lisa: Wheelie is a creative agency that specializes in helping brands articulate and amplify what they stand for, what they believe in, and make really cool creative work that serves as a gift to your community. So if you are a brand looking to amplify what you stand for in the world and use capitalism for positive change, we are your people. So you can go to the website, wheeliecreative.com. And as far as this podcast goes, how can they support it?
Iris: Well, they can visit wheeliecreative.com/podcast to find more episodes, transcripts, and the show notes. We are also found on Instagram at @wheeliecreative. Please subscribe, leave a five star review on your podcast app and share this podcast with a friend that really helps us grow.
And you can also support us by visiting one of our affiliate links, which you can find in the show notes.
With that. I'm Iris.
Lisa: And I’m Lisa.
Iris: Thanks for being here.
Lisa: Talk to you soon.
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